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Forum » [FHSW Europ] FHSW 0.61 Server: » Complaint Area » Apennine's Problem (Easy fix with SSM)
Apennine's Problem
navyduck10Date: Saturday, 2020-08-01, 5:53 PM | Message # 1
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I'm sick of playing this potentially good map with its recurring aerial combat problem.

The map is a semi-historical mish mash of things as are many other FHSW maps.  The Appenine mountains were the location of Kesselring's Gothic Line and didn't become a real area of combat operations until August of 1944. So really there doesn't need to be a Macchi Folgore on the Axis team as its way past their surrender, but that is a minor issue.

If we were playing this map historically, as many maps in FHSW are made (ex.- Midway Objective, Omaha Charlie, Stalingrad Urban, Dinant, can go on and on) with correct vehicles at correct times, with maybe 1 or 2 secret weapons thrown in that don't really change balance or affect gameplay or history much, than honestly their would be no Luftwaffe planes in the air during the day at this point, certainly not as circling fighters lol.

In other words, this map attempts to bring historical vehicles and a historical setting to the table while essentially being as fucked up as giving the Germans Stuka dive bombers on Falaise Pocket or Juno Beach map. It would fuck everything up because they simply weren't there. So this map is made very hypocritically in that respect. 

The reality of Apennines fighting in 1944/45 was that the Axis had a huge amount of AA guns and inflicted very heavy losses on US ground attack aircraft.  MOST OF THIS IS ALREADY IN THE MAP AND FEW CHANGES ARE NEEDED. So my first recommendation is make this map historically correct and remove axis fighter planes that wouldn't have been there in the first place, just like Omaha-Charlie, Juno, Gold, Merville, Falaise, Goodwood, Arnhem, Nuenen. Germans had no day fighter planes in Italy at this point in 1944, just like Normandy.

However, I imagine that people will go against making things historically accurate, so I have another recommendation that should be considered if my first isn't. 

First off, nothing against any of the pro fighter pilots such as Mr. J, Air Troll, and Cleaner. I have no quarrel at all with them and they play the game fairly and this is nothing against them. But I've definitely noticed a trend. Troll and Cleaner, understandably, enjoy being fighter pilots especially when they pick planes that can out-maneuver the fuck out of the enemies planes. This is logical as they want to get kills and that is understandable.  But on a map like Appenines they love to get together and fly against the US team, and can VERY EASILY GAIN COMPLETE AIR SUPERIORITY for the whole map, even though as I've stated the Germans had no day fighters in Italy at this time...  This fucks up a good, potentially realistic Appenine mountain fighting setting.

This is a map where most pros like to go axis, and not only do allies fighters have no chance usually, but to add on the axis get tons of fixed and mobile AA weapons that are very good.

So my second suggestion is to give the Allies AT LEAST ONE SINGLE AA WEAPON THAT ISN'T FIXED AT MAIN BASE.

Literally you can't shoot at the axis planes unless they attack the airfield? What kind of stupid bullshit is that? Like the US Fucking Army didn't have TONS AND TONS of mobile BOFORS AA AND M16 HALFTRACKS in theater by 1944? 

To summarize:

The Axis planes shouldn't even be there, just like they weren't there to support the Germans in anything but fighting off the B-17/B-24 raids in the late war, and the pro fighter pilots can easily gain air superiority against shitty pilots like myself. The map is not easy at all for the US on the ground, fighting against defensive fortifications the whole way, and the Germans still get massive amounts of AA which is fine because its historically accurate.

My recommendations are again:

1) Remove axis fighters as this map is made in the interest of historical accuracy and they wouldn't have been their anyway.

2) At the very least, give the US Army 1x M16 AA Halftrack and 1x 40mm Bofors AA towed by Halftrack

Thank you for taking the time to read
 
E-3Date: Saturday, 2020-08-01, 8:33 PM | Message # 2
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Quote navyduck10 ()
1) Remove axis fighters as this map is made in the interest of historical accuracy and they wouldn't have been their anyway.2) At the very least, give the US Army 1x M16 AA Halftrack and 1x 40mm Bofors AA towed by Halftrack

Calm down duck to remove the axis Fighters that is a little bit extreme for me.

However I do agree that axis has superior Fighters on the map how about we downgrade there Fighters to a regular bf109 and the earlier version of the Italian fighter I do not know it by name.

I agree that we should  give allies mobile anti-air into allied main base.
With that being said, fhsw has never been about being historically very accurate it's about having fun and cool toys to play with.
That is what sets fhsw apart from any other game out there.


I'm an old bf1942 player I go far back all the way to 2002
and I also play cnc generals.
 
navyduck10Date: Sunday, 2020-08-02, 0:31 AM | Message # 3
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Thank you for your help E-3 but I must ask if you think that FHSW isn't about historical accuracy then why are their maps like Midway Objective mode, which has a very historical layout of the real battle?

Why does a lot of our community come for the historical accuracy if it's not an attempt at historical accuracy to some degree?

And why do all late war Western front maps pretty much have no axis aircraft? Sounds historically accurate to me...

If it's not about historical accuracy then please explain all of these things to me...

There are many maps with "cool Toys" like Rat Trap but you must admit their are TONS of maps that try to be historically accurate.

From my own perspective, I don't like the secret weapons as much as you, I dont try to take V1 and Goliath all the time like you do. You clearly enjoy the secret weapon aspect, but you aren't the only one that plays the game. 

I and many others actually play this game more than any other because it is the most realistic game that you can find for WWII that actually has a huge amount of vehicles as well as First person shooter layout.  

There are no other games or mods that come close to all of the correct (or attempts to be correct) ballistic data and various types of munitions for armored vehicles and aircraft, so actually in the world of realism this goes pretty far.

Think about it, World of War planes and Warthunder amd WoT is all garbage cause you cant even fight against historically accurate vehicles. Your Sherman goes up against a T-72 for no good reason. Post Scriptum and Hell Let Loose barely have any vehicles to play and are unpopulated and require VOIP and full teamwork always. FH2 kind of sucks and barely has a player base as well, leaving only FHSW with realistic weapons and vehicles.

My point is that while you and many other players like this game for the made up toys that were never used in the war, many other players play for historical accuracy because many of the maps actually do attempt the correct vehicles for the time period.

It is clear that Appenines was't designed to be a silly map with Ho 229s and Maus and Jagtigers with wings flying around, they actually spent some work trying to make it a realistic mountain battle, and I think that it is a shame to let it not be so.

Again, do whatever you want, as you have more authority than I do for sure, but please my friend, don't think that this game has nothing to do with historical accuracy, as it's the most historically accurate as it can get for a WWII enthusiast that also want to fight with vehicles and aircraft and artillery and still do FPS (Which is a shame since the base game has been out for 18 years).


Message edited by navyduck10 - Sunday, 2020-08-02, 0:45 AM
 
E-3Date: Sunday, 2020-08-02, 1:59 AM | Message # 4
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I don't see myself as having a higher rank or higher authority I'm just a player like you.
I'm just here to have fun like everybody else.

As for the game being historically accurate or attempting to be it.

You only have to look at the maps to understand were fhsw fits in.

Even the maps which attempt to be historically accurate have a flavour of secret weapons and fun toys to play with what fhsw balances out is realism vs fun its like that sweet flavour right in between that is what fhsw just gets perfectly right.
There are games out there which attempt to be too serious as a result it will die pretty quickly.

(they are full of history nerds which will yell at you for doing something not right and then dying I personally would never like to play such a game)

Then there are games out there which are the other end of the spectrum like Battlefield 5. Which basically throw away everything and then make a mismatch from everything and then sell it as historically accurate while mainly focusing around Infantry combat with unrealistic weapons.

(this is boring for me because what's the difference between Call of Duty and Battlefield 5 ? in both games you are running around with a gun and that's about it!)

Fhsw does what no other game does it tries to be funny well being serious at the same time there are literally no games which managed to do it so well and I like to keep it that way.

Like I said before I agree that axis has superior Fighters if they get downgraded Fighters that will balance out the map pretty well because they would never be able to outmaneuver allied planes anymore.
You also must understand the map has a airfield for axis team so something has to spawn there which flies even if that means I'll have to spawn something that is totally useless I'm pretty sure a bf109 E4 would be slaughtered.


I'm an old bf1942 player I go far back all the way to 2002
and I also play cnc generals.


Message edited by E-3 - Sunday, 2020-08-02, 2:01 AM
 
navyduck10Date: Sunday, 2020-08-02, 3:27 AM | Message # 5
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I agree with you for the most part E-3, that's why I also brought up the option to just add mobile AA for Allies and not to remove aircraft for axis. One of my major considerations was also that indeed the map would seem odd with an axis hangar and airfield but no planes.

   I realize that this mod was not made for me and I do not mean to selfishly say what is and isn't the right way to do things. I hope you can understand that it's somewhat difficult for people like me as while FHSW does of course put many crazy nonexistent weapons in the game, it also adds so much realistic weapons that regular FH doesn't possess. 

   For example, just the ability to change ammunition types for a tank destroyer is a really nice touch of realism, as is the addition of the M26 Pershing, which is almost a secret weapon but that they actually used a few.  I personally play for those reason and understand that many players favor the Secret Weapons portion of this mod.

   I just want you to know that I understand your viewpoint totally and that personally I am always willing to compromise for a fair match. Breakthrough 1944 and Alpenfestung are some of my favorite maps and they are chock full of silly Secret Weapons, so please don't think that I only enjoy historically accurate gameplay here, it's just nice to get close to historically accurate at times when possible.

   I concur with your Appenine fix and I think that it will improve the map greatly. Thank you for all the work you do fixing things around here.
 
Born-1942Date: Sunday, 2020-08-02, 5:19 PM | Message # 6
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Really FHSW is one of the few realistic games in WW2. even ammunition cartridges have historical factors. For example the precision of how many ammunition Mags the soldiers carried in their equipment, grenades and etc ... Kits with historical precision. But the truth is that we have to have a balance between realism and fun.

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larxghhDate: Monday, 2020-08-03, 5:48 PM | Message # 7
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I whould agree for a 109 g10 or a d9 in alpenfesthng

-written by Demoman
 
E-3Date: Monday, 2020-08-03, 8:25 PM | Message # 8
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if everybody is in agreement then I can start editing the map. Which bf109 aircraft should I replace the current one ? there are lots of options available each one stronger in better than the last.

BF109
BF109_SP70
BF109_SP71
BF109_SP75
BF109_SP76
BF109_SP77
BF109E/B
BF109EB_SP70
BF109EB_SP71
BF109EB_SP75
BF109EB_SP76
BF109EB_SP77
Bf109-F
Bf109-F_SP70
Bf109-F_SP71
Bf109-F_SP75
Bf109-F_SP76
Bf109-F_SP77
Bf109-G2
Bf109-G2_SP70
Bf109-G2_SP71
Bf109-G2_SP75
Bf109-G2_SP76
Bf109-G2_SP77
Bf109-G2R6
Bf109-G2R6_SP70
Bf109-G2R6_SP71
Bf109-G2R6_SP75
Bf109-G2R6_SP76
Bf109-G2R6_SP77
Bf109-G6
Bf109-G6_SP70
Bf109-G6_SP71
Bf109-G6_SP75
Bf109-G6_SP76
Bf109-G6_SP77
Bf109-G6R6
Bf109-G6R6_SP70
Bf109-G6R6_SP71
Bf109-G6R6_SP75
Bf109-G6R6_SP76
Bf109-G6R6_SP77

What mobile anti air vehicle do I have to place in allied main base ?

m16 mgmc ?
T54 AAGMC ?
m19 gmc ?
t77 mgmc ?


I'm an old bf1942 player I go far back all the way to 2002
and I also play cnc generals.


Message edited by E-3 - Monday, 2020-08-03, 8:29 PM
 
navyduck10Date: Thursday, 2020-08-06, 1:24 AM | Message # 9
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I dont think that the Germans need anything higher than a Bf 109 G2 considering how poorly the P40 climbs in a fight and how poorly the P-51D turns and climbs.  The Bf109 G2 still has much more favorable flight chracteristics in my opinion, but I think this will help the situation.  I'm not sure what the "SP70" etc means but I think it should be a variant with only a single nose mounted 20mm.  The 3x 20mm setup on the current Appenines Bf 109 is just preposterous considering how fast and maneuverable it still is.

As for the Allied AA in my opinion it should either be the M16 MGMC or T77 MGMC, something .50 cal is better for hitting fighters over the 40mm.

Personally i would pick the T77 MGMC
 
bubuDate: Monday, 2020-08-10, 6:45 AM | Message # 10
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I agree with Duckduck, a little change in Axis planes is needed and vote for adding 2x AA for US to balance out the AA/plane ratio: 1x T77 MGMC AA and 1x M16 mgmc.

Also, since it is still Appenines in Italy '44 we could see some of the Italian planes? C.202 or C.205 Folglore? Probably not historical again but it's already insane map so if it helps balance things out, why not?:)

Sry for finding this thread too late X)

Adding keypoints to SSM thread for reference.
 
E-3Date: Wednesday, 2020-08-12, 2:53 PM | Message # 11
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After carefully considering the map we are talking about I think adding 2 anti air vehicles into allied main base is a little overkill.
Because there are only 2 German Fighters on the map and for that we need to put an anti air Armada on the map ?

here's my proposal this map works on a kind of War changing environment.
so I will attempt to go with this environment.
I am going to spawn a early war version of the bf 109 in the beginning of the round probably a E or F model.
I am also going to spawn the early war version of the Italian fighter in the beginning then replace it with the late war model when allies capture a certain flag at the same time I will spawn G2 version of the bf 109 to replace the early war model.
In the allies main base I will spawn one single quad 50 cal halftrack when the Germans lost there flags and then get there late war model aircraft  this half-track will be replaced with the t77.


I'm an old bf1942 player I go far back all the way to 2002
and I also play cnc generals.


Message edited by E-3 - Wednesday, 2020-08-12, 2:59 PM
 
navyduck10Date: Thursday, 2020-08-13, 3:37 AM | Message # 12
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I think that your plan will probably work well E-3 and I appreciate the time and effort you have/will put into this.
 
E-3Date: Thursday, 2020-08-13, 7:34 PM | Message # 13
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done  The configuration is now as follows.
When the allies haven't captured any flags the Germans will only have a bf 109 E with 2 20 mm cannons and mg17 and also the early war Italian fighter will be spawning the ma202.
In Allies main base a single M16AA quad 50 cal will be spawning in the beginning of the round.
This will stay this way until allies capture flag 2.
The bf109e will be replaced with the Bf109-G2R6 the  ma202 will be replaced with the late war Italian fighter the ma205 which was already on the map.
In Allies main base a single T77 will be spawning to replace the M16AA quad 50 cal.
In order for this configuration to be possible I had to remove team lock but that is acceptable for a fair match against the p40.
I sent bubu the ssm let's test it smile


I'm an old bf1942 player I go far back all the way to 2002
and I also play cnc generals.
 
Forum » [FHSW Europ] FHSW 0.61 Server: » Complaint Area » Apennine's Problem (Easy fix with SSM)
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