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Forum » Welcome to the [FHSW] Europ Community! » English Language » Never Trust Your Government (Especially the U.S.A. Government)
Never Trust Your Government
basilonemoh7Date: Thursday, 2020-05-21, 8:06 PM | Message # 1
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JFK: The Smoking Gun documentary

The shot that blew the side of his head off came from an AR-15 in the car behind. Massive and immediate response by Secret Service to cover up the truth, in Dallas and in Washington D.C.

TWA Flight 800 documentary

Missiles were fired from ships/shore to bring down the plane. Navy maneuvers taking place in the 'hood. Massive and immediate response by the FBI and NTSB to cover up the truth.

Google for Youtubes for both, I think they were both released in 2013. Or you can watch on Tubi which is free, just create an account.

Quite interesting that no one claimed credit for either and no one has ever come forward all of these years. Points directly to Federal employees, civilian and military, who made a mistake.


John Basilone
Medal of Honor Winner
1916-1945
KIA Iwo Jima
 
mardukDate: Friday, 2020-05-22, 1:06 PM | Message # 2
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Sad to hear that you "never" want to trust your government. I am aware that my European point of view might be different to somebodys from the US and I know there is a lot of shit with the CIA going on in the US, but I really think it is different for Europeans. Of cause not everything goes the best way here as well, but I would never go that far and say "never trust my government".
Where would it lead to anyway? I am not supportive to conspiracy theories because you can hardly ever verify them. Some might have a true core, yes, but there is also a lot of shit ones around (look at our player "Süd" lol). They can do a lot of harm to society because they make people mistrust too many things and left- or rightwing populists can take advantage of that.
I have worked in the field of security policy and the truth is, that basically all things in that field are a mixture of facts and propaganda - for well-known reasons...the fog of war. I am not trying to find out the "truth" anymore, because it feels so pointless...


This is a gaming community. People come here to relax. If you start an argument you will get kicked.

Quid pro quo.
 
starking018Date: Tuesday, 2020-05-26, 12:02 PM | Message # 3
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I also think that there are better things to focus attention to in order to properly determine if certain organizations or people can be trusted or not. Yes, if you focus and research one such tragedy/accusation/theory you'll probably find many ways in which certain government people could have acted or did act (it may be too hard to find out for sure) immorally. But you may miss the big picture and the root problems which easily explain why it'd be unwise to expect anything other than immorality, ignorance and/or irrationality from people in such positions (marginal exceptions tend to prove the rule - e.g. the better people leaving or being kicked out). <amateur philosophy warning/> The reason is that government positions are only attractive to people who are okay with working for an organization which commits acts such as taxation and other violations of the natural rights and private property of people who never explicitly agreed to any of it (no person can justly be considered bound by a contract merely due to circumstances of birth). Such acts are immoral, and so as long as people go along with them (for various reasons), most of them are likely to go along with some other similarly immoral acts too (for the same reasons). This is why you shouldn't trust them.

Immoral things like forced taxation are deeply rooted, arguably defining characteristics of what are called governments today, which makes the whole organizations illegitimate under natural law (there may be some rare and minor exceptions in which every single citizen did explicitly agree to it all, or in which there's an unimpeded way of opting out, with your property and all, in which case the government may not be illegitimate, but it'd still be just a bad idea, a very bad deal to make).
Quote marduk ()
Of cause not everything goes the best way here as well, but I would never go that far and say "never trust my government".Where would it lead to anyway?
We can see where it leads in practically every historical case where a government has given up or has been utterly beaten in its wars against free markets, free association and free speech: where there was once scarcity and abuse during a government monopoly/cartel's reign, abundance and flourishing emerges.
Once people start to judge the trustworthiness of government people the same way it's supposed to be done with all people - by building up and sharing relevant reputation information, and by assessing the stated principles of the person/organization (e.g. the way I assessed taxation above) - the need to find, support and use alternative products, services and mechanisms becomes apparent. When you start really looking for alternatives you'll likely find out (as I have) that there are alternatives for much more of the things, and much better ones than you could think of yourself (or by looking at and comparing only what governments offer)...


Air Troll a.k.a. starking018
 
mardukDate: Tuesday, 2020-05-26, 1:35 PM | Message # 4
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I warn people not to generalise all politicians since generalisation always is a bad approach to analyse any issue.
There is different reasons for politicians to try to be successfull:
1. Striving for votes and popularity
2. Striving for power and money
3. Striving for improvement of society
If there would be none of the latters ones, we would still sit in cave in front of a bonfire, or throw our shit out of the window like in the Middle ages. There still is a lot of problems, yes. But on the other hand the world (apart from climate change, whether you believe in it or not) has improved a lot in the last centuries. 1.000 years ago one out of six people died cause of violence and people did not get older than 30 or 40 years. Today, only one out of 1.000 dies cause of violence and people become way older. Also have a look at medical treatment, education system, etc. etc. ...and don't forget that we all have our computers and are able to communicate all around the world at any time and can have those conversations. But it is important to keep pointing out negative things in order to improve them and for this I am with you!


This is a gaming community. People come here to relax. If you start an argument you will get kicked.

Quid pro quo.
 
starking018Date: Thursday, 2020-05-28, 8:16 AM | Message # 5
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Technological and economic growth is what is really driving humanity forward in these ways. And I'd argue that there isn't a positive thing which a government (a state) can provide, which the private sector and all forms of voluntary interaction couldn't provide even better and cheaper, with the level to which technologies have progressed today. I would not argue about what could have happened in the past because that would be pointless anyway (besides, governments of the past have had major differences in financing, participation, independence, competition compared to todays').
Of course I never denied that there are people in government who strive for improvement of society, but I'm bringing several arguments why it's not a good idea to rely on that (the first three I already alluded to in my previous post):
  • A government based on any form of coercion is a badly designed system and no amount of good will can fix that and produce a good result out of a bad design.
  • Group 3 is small and ever shrinking because they either leave disgusted by what they experience, or due to becoming wiser or more independent, or they're kicked out by 1 and 2.
  • The ones who remain in 3 tend to be the more morally-relativistic, ignorant, irrational or manipulable among all who went in. The best people tend to go elsewhere.
  • Even if you try to have only 3 you end up with a lot of 1 and 2 because of the decisions of other people around you, whereas on the market you can choose for yourself.
  • People in governments change (for the worse, as I argued) and so any positive reputation and promises don't hold well over time.
  • We should judge outcomes, rather than intentions. It's easy to get fooled by oneself or by others into doing the wrong thing while thinking it's the right thing (ignorance).

    Air Troll a.k.a. starking018
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    mardukDate: Thursday, 2020-05-28, 2:01 PM | Message # 6
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    Troll, how you try to convince me that the world is bad, is really sad. But you will never convince me because that is only your negative attitude. I decided a long time ago not to live like that because it just feels bad.

    Quote: "And I'd argue that there isn't a positive thing which a government (a state) can provide, which the private sector and all forms of voluntary interaction couldn't provide even better and cheaper, with the level to which technologies have progressed today"

    Sorry, but this is so much wrong, it couldn't be more wrong. Private companies are profit-orientated and the state isn't. And because of that, services they provide are more expensive. We had a wave of privatisation in Germany in the last decades and it turned out to be more expensive. And because of that, they are going a step back and let the state do these things again. Or have a look at the German health system compared to the private runned US health system which is three times more expensive for people and not any better - no, thanks!

    Also, I wouldn't like to see people like Marc Zuckerberg and companies like Google, Amazon, BMW, etc. rule the world. They wouldn't do it any better than the state because those companies are ruled by people as well. And power corrupts everywhere, not only in a state.
    To think that a world without governments but run by companies (and that's what would happen) would be better is fairly naive.

    Quote: "Group 3 is small and ever shrinking because they either leave disgusted by what they experience, or due to becoming wiser or more independent, or they're kicked out by 1 and 2."

    Just another pessimistic hypothesis you can't prove! Already the old Greeks like Platon and Socrate cried about the moral decline. ...but in fact, there is people crying about things in every age, no matter what is happening around them - because it is about what you chose what you want to see. I tried to point out that not everything is bad, but you chosed to point out the bad things in my post again.

    It is not because there is no good things, it is because you chosed not to see them. You seem to be one of the guys who has been gazing for too long into the abyss and now thinks the world is bad, too. You are a very negative and pessimistic person. I am sorry that your mind is poisoned in that way. I wish you will see one day that life is about the decisions you make! Once you realise that, you will stop crying about the mean world around you.


    This is a gaming community. People come here to relax. If you start an argument you will get kicked.

    Quid pro quo.
     
    starking018Date: Friday, 2020-05-29, 1:49 PM | Message # 7
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    I see you too didn't limit yourself to 10 sentences now, and IMO that's okay biggrin
    Quote marduk ()
    how you try to convince me that the world is bad, is really sad.
    Governments are not the world - I only criticized this small part of all things that are out there. You can find both optimism and pessimism about different things in my posts (and yours, for that matter) but it's not about that.
    Quote marduk ()
    I tried to point out that not everything is bad, but you chosed to point out the bad things in my post again.
    I acknowledged the good things but I don't accept the idea that they wouldn't have happened without state coercion.

    What I perhaps failed to get across is that I am not at all pessimistic about the world, because I see how creative, free-thinking individuals are winning huge fields of freedom for humanity and improving quality of life, mainly through technologies, and there's the potential for a lot more! They're doing it with or without a direct profit opportunity for themselves, and no government or coercion is needed in any of it.

    Maybe you could accuse me of being biased in favor of some things and ideas which are independent of and competing with governments and statism. I've benefited greatly from such things. I'm saying there are winners and losers, and that governments are the losing team (for good reasons). And I'm on another team. Of course I'm not inclined to mention whatever strengths (which are fragile and passing anyway) I see in them. But I didn't see you provide arguments that a given government is worth trusting for as much as they demand (roughly half of all your income, all justice, information concerning life and death, etc.). Nor did I see you contest my main argument for rejecting statism, which is the moral one against aggression. And that's a pretty crucial and fundamental problem which in my opinion calls for cessation of any help for governments by anyone who values the basic non-aggression principle. That's one good reason why good people would want to leave government upon realization, or not join them in the first place.
    Quote marduk ()
    Private companies are profit-orientated and the state isn't.
    There are many other organizational forms which are not necessarily profit-oriented (non-profits, mutual organizations, cooperatives, etc.). You could form an organization with all the desirable characteristics you want from a government run system or systems, but without the coercive taxation (and other violations of liberty); with freedom to become or stop being a member/shareholder; and an orderly dissolution provision. All kinds of organizations could compete in a free market.
    Quote marduk ()
    And because of that, services they provide are more expensive. We had a wave of privatisation in Germany in the last decades and it turned out to be more expensive.
    I wonder what happened to their share prices and dividends though, because it makes sense to own some of the companies which you really believe in and do business with. If you end up earning back any price increases in the form of dividends and appreciation, you're not any worse off. Abolishing taxation, state licensing and other detrimental influences and barriers to competition by governments would help a lot too. Plus, I don't know if you're taking into account monetary inflation (consumer price inflation numbers, which governments like to abuse, are misleading), extra taxes for state-run services, quality, availability and other factors.
    Quote marduk ()
    Also, I wouldn't like to see people like Marc Zuckerberg and companies like Google, Amazon, BMW, etc. rule the world. They wouldn't do it any better than the state because those companies are ruled by people as well.
    I don't use them much and they are not at all irreplaceable. Unfettered free markets don't let monopolies live for long. A free market is a well constructed system. Such people can only rule you as much as you give them the power to. So I'm not worried about that.
    Quote marduk ()
    I wish you will see one day that life is about the decisions you make!
    Of course it is. I believe that the ideas I'm sharing are important for avoiding bad decisions (I couldn't ignore them in my decisions). At the same time I don't see them as restricting decisions badly - instead they are opening up many great options.


    Air Troll a.k.a. starking018
     
    basilonemoh7Date: Sunday, 2020-05-31, 12:41 PM | Message # 8
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    "I can't breathe"

    Eric Garner 2014
    George Floyd 2020


    John Basilone
    Medal of Honor Winner
    1916-1945
    KIA Iwo Jima
     
    Forum » Welcome to the [FHSW] Europ Community! » English Language » Never Trust Your Government (Especially the U.S.A. Government)
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