[Map Discussion] Op. Spring Awakening (r)

Date: Friday, 2013-11-01, 5:49 PM | Message # 1

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Operation Spring Awakening 1945

We will probably use this map in the F|H tournament so I collected all the vehicle spawn data for Operation Spring Awakening and added my tank suggestion (see My suggestion further down) based loosely on the historical data. The battle is famous for the huge amount of SU-100's used.

If we need one more flag I thought we could use SU HQ1. Please tell me what you think and add your own thoughts.

============
Ger HQ|ID: 1
============
Air
1 x BF 109 G-10
3 x FW 190 G 8 x 50 kg bomb

Tanks
1 x Jagdtiger
1 x Jagdtiger GT 102
1 x JagdPanther (APCR)
2 x Jagdpanzer IV
3 x Panther G (APCR)
1 x Panzer II M
2 x Panzer IV J
2 x Tiger II (APCR)
1 x Tiger II 10.5 cm KwK

Artillery
2 x Sd.Kfz. 251 "Stuka zu Fuß"

Air Defence
2 x Ostwind

Transport
3 x Horse K98k
2 x Horse MP 40
4 x Kübelwagen
1 x Opel Blitz (Ammo)
2 x Opel Blitz
2 x Sd.Kfz. 251/9 "Stummel"

Stationary
4 x 2-cm-Flakvierling
6 x Flak 18
2 x MG 131Z
2 x Pak 40

============
SU HQ1|ID: 7
============
Tanks
1 x SU-76
1 x T-34/85

Transport
2 x Gaz 67

Artillery
1 x 122 mm gun A-19

Stationary
1 x 37 mm AA
5 x DP 1928
2 x DShK 38
6 x ZiS 3

============
SU HQ2|ID: 2
============
Air
2 x La-7b
1 x Yak-9b
1 x Yak-9P

Tanks
2 x IS-2
2 x ISU-122
1 x ISU-122S
1 x ISU-152
3 x T-34/85
4 x SU-76
2 x SU-85M

Transport
6 x Gaz 67
3 x Horse Nagant
3 x Horse PPSh
1 x ZiS 5 (Ammo)
2 x ZiS 5

Artillery
2 x 122 mm gun A-19
2 x 280 mm Br5 Battery

Air Defence
2 x ZSU-37

Stationary
5 x 37 mm AA
5 x 85 mm AA
2 x DShK 38
5 x ZiS 3

============
Flag1|ID: 3
============
------------
German Capture
------------

1 x IS-2
1 x Panther G (APCR)
1 x SU-100

1 x Horse K98k
1 x Kübelwagen

------------
SU Capture
------------
1 x SU-76
1 x Tiger L/71

1 x Gaz 67
1 x Horse Nagant

2 x ZiS 3

============
Flag2|ID: 5
============
------------
German Capture
------------
1 x Panther G (APCR)
1 x SU-100

1 x Kübelwagen

------------
SU Capture
------------
1 x Gaz 67
2 x ZiS 3

============
Flag3|ID: 4
============
------------
German Capture
------------
1 x ISU-130
1 x IS-2
1 x IS-3
1 x Panzer IV J

2 x Horse
2 x Horse K98k
1 x Kübelwagen

3 x Pak 40

------------
SU Capture
------------
1 x T-34

1 x Gaz 67
2 x Horse
2 x Horse Nagant

3 x ZiS 3

============
Flag4|ID: 6
============
------------
German Capture
------------
1 x TB-3 Zveno (2 x I-195)

1 x IS-2
1 x ISU-122BM
1 x ISU-152BM
1 x Marder II

2 x Horse K98k
2 x Horse MP 40
1 x Kübelwagen

2 x MG 42
3 x MG 131Z

------------
SU Capture
------------
1 x Universal Carrier ZiS-2

1 x Gaz 67
2 x Horse Nagant
2 x Horse PPSh

2 x DP 1928
3 x DShK 38
5 x ZiS 3

============
TOTAL
============
When all flags are under control of Germany
------------
Germany
------------
Air
1 x BF 109 G-10
3 x FW 190 G 8 x 50 kg bomb

Tanks
1 x Jagdtiger
1 x Jagdtiger GT 102
1 x JagdPanther (APCR)
2 x Jagdpanzer IV
Marder II
5 x Panther G (APCR)
Panzer II M
3 x Panzer IV J
2 x Tiger II (APCR)
1 x Tiger II 10.5 cm KwK
1 x (Tiger L/71)

~18

My suggestion:
No Jagdtigers saw combat in this battle so I dropped them, instead I added StuG's which saw action there. I also increased the amount of (Jagd)PzIV's and Panthers. Generally I also think we need more trucks or APC's to transport infantry. One artillery battery would be nice, too.

1 x Jagdpanther
4 x Jagdpanzer IV
6 x Panther G
5 x Panzer IV J
3 x StuG III G Late
1 x Sturmpanther/Brummbär
2 x Tiger II
1 x Tiger II 10.5 cm KwK

------------
SU
------------
Air
2 x La-7b
1 x TB-3 Zveno (2 x I-195)
1 x Yak-9b
1 x Yak-9P

Tanks
5 x IS-2
1 x IS-3
2 x ISU-122
1 x ISU-122BM
1 x ISU-122S
1 x ISU-130
1 x ISU-152
1 x ISU-152BM
(6)5 x SU-76
2 x SU-85M
2 x SU-100
4 x T-34/85
1 x (T-34)

~26

My suggestion:
More IS-2's than T-34's sounded a bit weird to me. I also increased the amount of SU-100's because as I mentioned above they were used in large quantities in this battle. To balance it out I removed the IS-3 and a couple of ISU-122's. Like Germany more trucks and APC's for infantry transport are required imo.

6 x T-34/85
2 x IS-2
1 x ISU-152
1 x ISU-122
1 x ISU-130
1 x ISU-152BM
4 x SU-100
3 x SU-85M
5 x SU-76

============
Historical Data
============
------------
Germany
------------
55 x Panzer IV
63 x Panther
44 x Jagdpanzer IV
32 x StuG III
12 x Flakpanzer IV
8 x Tiger II
= 214

------------
SU
------------
16 x IS-2 (2.8%)
100 x T-34/85 (17.5%)
50 x Sherman 76 mm (8.7%)
10 x ISU-152 (1.7%)
16 x ISU-122 (2.8%)
182 x SU-100 (31.8%)
32 x SU-85 (5.6%)
166 x SU-76 (29%)
= 572

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Date: Friday, 2013-11-01, 6:03 PM | Message # 2

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I think it could be cool to make the small soviet headquarters a capturable flag, i dont mind your suggestions , but i think we should try to make sure that on this map, there should be a bombing kit for both sides, to make up for the relatively light air support..

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Date: Friday, 2013-11-01, 6:08 PM | Message # 3

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We can change the air spawns, haven't thought about what to use there yet. Maybe Robert can give us some ideas.

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Date: Friday, 2013-11-01, 6:30 PM | Message # 4

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i think its okay to leave the air spawns as is, to make sure that tanks dont get owned by stukas/sturmoviks etc, while bombing kits are far less readily available for use.

Death

Date: Friday, 2013-11-01, 7:48 PM | Message # 5

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Remove soviet HQ1 and make it cappable. 5 flags is plenty.

Key notes eye:
Every map should have an odd number of flags so one side always bleeds the other out.

Eye good idea on removing the is3 and jagdtiger. No tiger's in this battle?

Date: Friday, 2013-11-01, 11:00 PM | Message # 6

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No Tiger I's to my knowledge, most were destroyed in Spring 1945. But we could add one if you want.

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Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 0:16 AM | Message # 7

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I think its way to many tanks. I reckon more than 10 tanks each side is too many, because we also want to see infantry action, dont we?!

This is a gaming community. People come here to relax. If you start an argument you will get kicked.

Quid pro quo.

Marduk aka Postduk

Robert_von_Eberhahn

Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 1:38 AM | Message # 8

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Don´t forget the mobile AA for both teams!!!

Axis planes I would propose 1 ME262 and a Focke Wulf with 500kg bomb or that one with Panzerschrecks underneath its wings. Stuka Kanonenvogel was also in Service in late 1945 eastern front flown by Rudel so far as I remember.

I also have to say that attention is pay to don´t grab all FHSW special units out of that map because that is what it makes FHSW so amazing. I think with look at "FHSW" there is no argument to say "historicle correct" or that units wasn´t in service there.

Just another very important thing I remember is that german units are mostly overpowered in the heads of a lot of people so be very carefull in balancing (please wink

) I was really in there in a few maps in a campaign (FH) in my old community and that did really suck angry

!

And think if the germans pulled back in there mainbase that they have only a few ways to leave them, it would become a real bottleneck to break out from that position !!!

Quote Endless_Nameless (

)

We can change the air spawns, haven't thought about what to use there yet. Maybe Robert can give us some ideas.

At the moment I don´t know anything about airspawns on spring awakening?! Are there any?

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Robert_von_Eberhahn

Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 1:47 AM | Message # 9

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Also adding the Bergetiger would be a nice feature. Perhaps it´s possible to mod it in that way that the capacity from the wrench is limited so that is impossible to repair the tanks allways but only if the Bergetiger is near so that u can refill your wrench.

Do the russians have any similar to the Bergetiger?

I think it would add another tactical feature to the gameplay so the teams have to pay attention to supply the fighting troops?!

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Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 2:28 AM | Message # 10

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we cant mod anything that intricate, but i agree, there should be support vehicles, bergertiger and ammo trucks..

Death

Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 3:38 AM | Message # 11

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I disagree with Marduk, this had a lot of tanks, so we should keep all the tanks. However, i think we should make 2 of the flags inaccesable to tanks, meaning only infantry can get to 2-3 flags.

That way the tanks can fight against eachother on the other flags while the infantry battle for the other flags.

Added (2013-11-02, 3:13 AM)
---------------------------------------------
I suggest moving the locations of the flags, maybe make 2-3 flags infantry flags only, have the tanks provide support to the advancing infantry and support the apcs, mobile AAs are good.

See Marduk 10 tanks is horrible, the last fh campaign only had a few tanks per side, it was horrible, aboslutely horrible. i mean both sides have infantry with anti-tank capabilities so tanks won't be that much of a problem. Keep the tanks in, especially in this map.

Added (2013-11-02, 3:38 AM)
---------------------------------------------
Also eye since this battle was germany/hungary vs russia/bulgaria remove one of the jagdpanther ivs and add the 44m "jagdtas" for the hungarians, and get rid of 2 panthers maybe and add the normal 44m. to give people the axis experience, of the german/hungarian alliance.

Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 9:51 AM | Message # 12

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@Death: But see, there is so many vehicles, nobody will go as infantry. There are even so many units that they will stand around unused. For what are we have a Fallschirmjäger and Panzergrenadier Regiment then??
@Eye: For the infantry we need transportation like Sd.Kfz. 251

This is a gaming community. People come here to relax. If you start an argument you will get kicked.

Quid pro quo.

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Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 11:38 AM | Message # 13

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Quote Robert_von_Eberhahn (

)

Don´t forget the mobile AA for both teams!!!

Yes of course, also trucks and APC's. This is just my tank suggestion. I will also add a Bergetiger and an ISU-T and maybe remove something instead.

Quote Robert_von_Eberhahn (

)

And think if the germans pulled back in there mainbase that they have only a few ways to leave them, it would become a real bottleneck to break out from that position !!!

There are 4 ways to leave the main base because you can cross the lake with tanks in certain areas (see the light parts), so I don't think that's a problem.

Quote Death (

)

Also eye since this battle was germany/hungary vs russia/bulgaria remove one of the jagdpanther ivs and add the 44m "jagdtas" for the hungarians, and get rid of 2 panthers maybe and add the normal 44m. to give people the axis experience, of the german/hungarian alliance.

Great idea, then we have plenty of FHSW vehicles. Is that a compromise you can live with Robert? This is also my idea of Secret Weapons, don't add just Secret Weapons for the sake of having them but think about which ones make sense. Immersion is a really big factor for me when playing a game. But if the majority of people wants to see 10 IS-3 vs 5 Maus I can do that as well. tongue

Quote marduk (

)

This raises a question: Are infantry regiments even allowed to use tanks? Or does the commander distribute the vehicles like he thinks it's best?

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Khaine

Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 1:52 PM | Message # 14

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In the last tournaments many divisions were only made of infantry regiments, yet they had tanks used by these infantry reg and it worked.
In any case the general decides which regiment have which tanks, you can give all of them to the same regiment, but you can also split them. Both methods have worked. Also if you are in a tank regiment and there is only a small ammount of tanks, you won't leave the server but you will play as infantry.

And I also agree that you have put an incredible number of tanks in this map (more vehicles/planes/artillery than a team have players lol, and you don't know if you will have a full server !!). Unless you want it to be the tank map of the tournament (good idea for ONE map), try to think on something different, because it's quite hard to balance a map with so many vehicles.

Something like 10 Heavy german tanks against one or two tank destroyers for the Soviet (which are defending and can rely on AT guns and handheld AT weapons, and why not a bomber), and Soviet Reinforcement Tanks spawning each times Axis cap a flag. That's just an example.

Message edited by Khaine - Saturday, 2013-11-02, 1:54 PM

Robert_von_Eberhahn

Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 2:24 PM | Message # 15

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Quote Endless_Nameless (

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Yes of course, also trucks and APC's. This is just my tank suggestion. I will also add a Bergetiger and an ISU-T and maybe remove something instead.

Very nice I´m happy smile

Quote Endless_Nameless (

)

There are 4 ways to leave the main base because you can cross the lake with tanks in certain areas (see the light parts), so I don't think that's a problem.

I know about the fords to cross the lake, but nevertheless that are all bottlenecks. Well, we will see and I hope not like a catastrophal disaster for the axis.

Quote Endless_Nameless (

)

Very nice idea, yes sure!

But after a bit meditation about that topic I disagree with removing IS 3 and Jagdtiger (additional that one with GT) from the map. I mean this battle happens in spring 1945 perhaps 2 or 4 weeks before the war is over. On wich other map do u want to put them in?! There is no time to wait left! The devs surely makes their own thoughts about map outlay and the units they put in. That map is really pure fun with the Jagdtiger GT because terrain fits to the tactics useable with that beast absolutley!!! Also to the russian SU´s they can hide there in ambush and have large fields of fire and especially the long distances for the big guns.
Also I would propose to increase the visibility range on maps like Prokhorovka and Spring Awakening. On a day of zitadelle for example its possible to see ur enemy over 2 grid squares! I think to play those maps with such a high visibility range would add more feeling to the gameplay.

At last for me it makes no matter what tanks are used on the ground because i will likely bee in the air. But nevertheless I have to say that.

edit: I like the idea very much to make a few flags only within reach for Infantry very much!!! Other ting I forgot was my request to make all AT guns moveable so that the tankers are allways unsure where they probably will hide in ambush. And of course a towable 152 howizer for Slobo that he has something to play with crazy

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Message edited by Robert_von_Eberhahn - Saturday, 2013-11-02, 2:32 PM

Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 2:33 PM | Message # 16

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@Khaine: Not all vehicles I posted are supposed to be available from the start but after capping certain flags. I know that not every vehicle will be used but it gives the commander more options. But yeah I can try to reduce it.

I personally think this map is not very enjoyable as infantry (at least for attacking) because of the long walking distances between each flag and there's absolutely no cover between them.

@Robert: Making all AT guns movable sounds like a good idea. Increasing visibilty is also good but can't be done serverside and can also cause lag.

---

Or maybe we should just leave it as it is? Would definitely save some work for me.

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Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 3:03 PM | Message # 17

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Quote

I personally think this map is not very enjoyable as infantry (at least for attacking) because of the long walking distances between each flag and there's absolutely no cover between them.

This is why I said lets put sd.kfz 251 on this map, to transport the inf. Arrived at the flags they man the pak's. It makes lots of sense.

This is a gaming community. People come here to relax. If you start an argument you will get kicked.

Quid pro quo.

Marduk aka Postduk

Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 4:31 PM | Message # 18

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why not also put one or two kettenkrads or bmws as well for fast initial infantry deployment

Death

Date: Saturday, 2013-11-02, 5:07 PM | Message # 19

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Duky, this isn't a good infantry map, like Eye said its too open. all you need is a few good riflemen to wipe out an entire regiment. More tanks, leave more options, plus the battle will seem more intense when the tanks keep pouring out of base instead of no tanks for like 5 minutes cause they all get killed.

I think we should have lots of towable guns, like the 152 for slobo.

For the allies, every regiment is getting t-34/85s since each regiment probably has good tankers, but the tanking regment will get the isus, sus, and the is2s.
Axis I don't know. For now I think we should leave out the jagdtiger and the Is3. the axis will get the 44m Jagdtas and the normal 44ms, allies have the su100s like 4 now i believe.